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Gamebanshee Review

24

Comments

  • SchneidendSchneidend Posts: 2,660Member
    @awin123
    I don't mean to imply that the technical issues don't exist, merely that they aren't as prolific as the people having them and posting inflammatory and hyperbolic things about the game and Beamdog/Overhaul like to believe. They are being very outspoken, but they do not represent a majority of the community, much less the entire playerbase. That's what vocal minority means, not that their claims are easily proven false.

    And, using "big words" doesn't make me right, but they do make me awesome. ;)
    CaptRoryTJ_Hookerelminster
  • AndreaColomboAndreaColombo Posts: 4,812Member, Moderator, BGEE Team Member, Beta Tester
    edited December 2012

    "[...] Not only is this feature near-useless because of how ugly it makes the game look, you also can't fully zoom the camera back out to regain the sharpness of the original graphics.

    I'll chime in very briefly to state that this is a false and misleading statement.

    First of all, the upscaling algorithm implemented in BG:EE is the best available, barring perhaps the Lanczos filter (but they're very close). Making the game look better than it currently does when zoomed in requires the availability of the source art assets, which we know were lost. Zooming in doesn't look half as bad as the reviewer is saying.

    Second, it is totally possible to regain the sharpness of the original graphics after zooming in. The reviewer must have missed the memo where they said the game can be zoomed out from its native resolution as well: That's gonna look more blurry than native resolution because it also employs the upscaling algorithm, so if you zoom all the way out of course you're not getting the same sharpness. It doesn't take Albert Einstein to test this, if you don't know it beforehand.

    If you so much as fiddle with the zoom for a few seconds, you can find the spot where sharpness is maximized and that's the native resolution. Hard to find? That's because the scaler looks pretty good.

    Post edited by AndreaColombo on
  • awin123awin123 Posts: 55Member

    @awin123
    I don't mean to imply that the technical issues don't exist, merely that they aren't as prolific as the people having them and posting inflammatory and hyperbolic things about the game and Beamdog/Overhaul like to believe. They are being very outspoken, but they do not represent a majority of the community, much less the entire playerbase. That's what vocal minority means, not that their claims are easily proven false.

    And, using "big words" doesn't make me right, but they do make me awesome. ;)

    And yet that's exactly what you and other white knights are doing is implying that technical issues largely don't exist and are just something that a few people are experiencing, yet majority of users have nvidia/intel graphics cards and do experience issues ranging from flickering to the game flat out not starting without tweaks or even after tweaking their configs.

    Anyway, you're not really worth my time, and you're clearly not very smart since you don't even address points directly you just shift topics and make generalization. Have fun thinking highly of yourself and how "awesome" you are for pulling out the ol thesaurus.
    Michal
  • Excalibur_2102Excalibur_2102 Posts: 253Member
    @AndreaColombo I cant actually notice any difference until I zoom right in. Thanks for clearing that up though, as it was the main part of the review I had issues with/couldnt understand
  • SchneidendSchneidend Posts: 2,660Member
    @awin123
    I addressed your points directly, as well as your apparent misunderstanding of the term vocal minority. I also tried to be civil and facetious as an olive branch to make up for earlier ugliness. I don't think anybody is claiming that the bugs, glitches, don't exist. I have not seen anybody make that claim. Regardless of how many threads get made about it, however, the people having problems are a vocal minority, as in they aren't the majority of the community/playerbase but are the most outspoken. People for whom the game works fine, the majority, simply don't make a bunch of threads about how much they like that the game isn't broken. That doesn't mean the technical issues don't exist any more than talking about the technical issues at length makes them more severe or prolific than they actually are.

    If I'm doing any "white knighting" it's combating misinformation and sharing my positive experiences to help prevent people who don't have the game yet from getting the idea that it is 100% broken for everybody.
    elminsterTJ_Hooker
  • NukeninNukenin Posts: 327Member
    A good review, though from page 3:
    "The only way to get the game looking sharp is to play in windowed mode, which has its share of problems like difficulty in scrolling the screen using the mouse, and of course, the lack of resolution options that prevent you from resizing the window."
    You don't need resolution options to resize the window. You just need good ol' window-resizing skills. You know, click-and-drag on a window border. The game doesn't even force aspect constraints, so you can try to play in a tall and slender window (the main menu UI didn't like this at least), and the minimum size (perhaps due to the necessity of keeping the standard minimize/maximize/close controls in the titlebar) will let you (try to) play BG:EE on a postage stamp.

    It's a shame that the game isn't looking that great for some folks, and it's something that Overhaul et al need to address. For me, BG:EE isn't jaw-droppingly worse than vintage BG (before any crafty mods like widescreen might be slathered on). However, IMHO, Overhaul et al should have kept the 2D engine as an option, for native Windows support at the least, with the necessary overhaul *rimshot* to facilitate good 2D game/UI scaling for widescreen and HD displays. It could have proven a much smoother path than trying to depend on OpenGL support for everybody.
  • decadodecado Posts: 1,260Member
    "On top of that, the user interface and updated fonts have apparently been drawn at a low resolution, and are scaled up."

    I kinda agree on this. The opening splash screen (where you choose to play BG, Black Pits or the Tutorial) is low res and the UI itself I feel really could be much sharper. I don't know about the who's or why's of why it is like this but I would assume a way to minimise this would be to use a very high res pic which could then easily be scaled down for lower resolution screens.

    Loading up the first GUI mod yesterday which reverts the UI back to BG1 stone pattern, the icons here seem of a similar quality to the new UI icons in terms of resolution. Surely this isn't how it was meant to be?
    GrandeC
  • IkonNavrosIkonNavros Posts: 227Member
    edited December 2012

    "[...] Not only is this feature near-useless because of how ugly it makes the game look, you also can't fully zoom the camera back out to regain the sharpness of the original graphics.

    I'll chime in very briefly to state that this is a blatant lie.

    First of all, the upscaling algorithm implemented in BG:EE is the best available, barring perhaps the Lanczos filter (but they're very close). Making the game look better than it currently does when zoomed in requires the availability of the source art assets, which we know were lost. Zooming in doesn't look half as bad as the reviewer is saying.

    Second, it is totally possible to regain the sharpness of the original graphics after zooming in. The reviewer must have missed the memo where they said the game can be zoomed out from its native resolution as well: That's gonna look more blurry than native resolution because it also employs the upscaling algorithm, so if you zoom all the way out of course you're not getting the same sharpness. It doesn't take Albert Einstein to test this, if you don't know it beforehand.

    If you so much as fiddle with the zoom for a few seconds, you can find the spot where sharpness is maximized and that's the native resolution. Hard to find? That's because the scaler looks pretty good.

    That is seriously not true, friends from a german Baldur's Gate Board have compared pictures of the original Game with the EE - You can not escape the Auto-Zoom Feature, when you load your game, the zoom is about 3 mouswheel scrolls already zoomed in.

    And the Autozoom, which is BEFORE the value you reach even if you completly zoom out is around 3-5 mouswheel scrolls...

    So do not say there is no Quality Loss, when there is one Indeed!

    Result is, the picture gets more and more blurry, even if there is no need for it to do so. If Auto zoom would be also user controlled, you can also use the user controlled zooming function - you can make the picture also larger that way, without the need to have a half-ugly picture already from start!

    Only solution therefor: Autozoom must be able to deactivate, user should have full control over the zoom :)

    Post edited by IkonNavros on
  • BelgarathMTHBelgarathMTH Posts: 2,485Member
    edited December 2012
    I kind of wish people could have honest discussions about what they like and don't like about the game and about the Gamebanshee review without resorting to insults and hyperbole.

    Example: "That's a blatant lie!", when what really happened was, the attacked person expressed their opinion about something, and the attacker disagreed with that opinion.

    Diplomatic phrasing of the same thing: "Well, I hear you, but I have a different opinion, and here's why...", or "Hmm, I don't really see it like you do. Here's what I think..."

    Also, any ad hominem phrasing will get you not taken seriously by any thoughtful person. What's worse, is that ad hominem phrasing invites retaliation, fighting, and, on the largest scale, full-blown war. "Ad hominem" phrases include:

    "You are... (wrong, an idiot, stupid, lying, a troll, a brat, acting like a child, insert your own insulting predicate nominative)."

    "People like you make me... (wretch, get sick, become enraged, stop listening, ignore you, insert your own insulting infinitive phrase).

    "I am so angry at what you said I want to... (commit any act of violence, insert your own threat)."

    "I hate when people...(paraphrase what the person you disagree with said)."

    "You're... (any use of curse words, at all whatsoever)." We do not use scatalogical language in mixed, polite company. You use curse words when you are at home in your own social group, who happens to use such "filthy" language for color and emphasis, and nobody is being threatened. In mixed company, you use curse words as a threat. You have no other reason to use them unless your intent is to threaten or hurt emotionally.

    I could go on at length about this, and, I could also go into "straw man argumentation", which I see just as often as the dreaded "ad hominem".

    Diplomacy is not that hard, people. Stick to "I" phrases rather than "you" phrases. If you must use a "you" phrase, it should be in the conditional mood: "If I understand you correctly, you're saying....Is that right?", "If you think, okay, but I think..."

    Diplomacy makes peace, ends wars, and makes the world get better. Yes, it even gets you better games to play. Diplomacy is motivated by a desire to make everything better. Even venting of negative emotions can serve diplomacy, ("I'm so frustrated, because...!") if it's done with restraint and courtesy.

    Ad hominem, straw man arguing, and cursing, are for fighting. People who use them seem to me to have fighting as their primary motivation. Threats and desire to hurt others who disagree, clearly demarcating "us" and "them" are the motivations thereof.

    So please, ask yourself first why you want to say whatever negative thing you are saying, and, if you still want to say it, consider rephrasing to a more diplomatic approach. Going to war, either with weapons or with words, is never a desireable thing.
    Post edited by BelgarathMTH on
    elminster
  • IkonNavrosIkonNavros Posts: 227Member
    edited December 2012
    What? i was completly peaceful, i have no hard anger filled feelings about anyone, also not for the devs :D

    Everything flows silent - Like a stream of water :D

    But since i wrote friends made a comparison of the EE with Baldur's Gate 1... Take a look for youself and see the supieriority of the not autozoom cursed original game :D

    http://imageshack.us/a/img507/2508/bgtbgeevergleich.gif
    Post edited by IkonNavros on
  • AndreaColomboAndreaColombo Posts: 4,812Member, Moderator, BGEE Team Member, Beta Tester
    There is no such thing as an "auto zoom", and it's astonishing that so many users think there is.

    When you start the game, everything is at native resolution and is as sharp as the original by definition.

    As I stated in my previous post, you can actually zoom out from native resolution (by three mousewheel scrolls, in fact) and that's part of the zoom feature. Zooming out and comparing screens is therefore not fair, as you're comparing native resolution against an upscaling algorithm.
  • AndreaColomboAndreaColombo Posts: 4,812Member, Moderator, BGEE Team Member, Beta Tester

    Example: "That's a blatant lie!", when what really happened was, the attacked person expressed their opinion about something, and the attacker disagreed with that opinion.

    Resolution and upscaling algorithms are not a matter of opinion: They're a matter of maths. What the reviewer said is objectively false from a technical standpoint, and being "diplomatic" about it is not going to change the substance.
  • NukeninNukenin Posts: 327Member

    But since i wrote friends made a comparison of the EE with Baldur's Gate 1... Take a look for youself and see the supieriority of the not autozoom cursed original game :D

    http://imageshack.us/a/img507/2508/bgtbgeevergleich.gif

    That definitely illustrates the distinction between BGT (read: BG2) and BG:EE. But the corresponding screenshot from BG (the first) should be thrown in as well for good measure, in all its 640x480, unable-to-hide-the-UI glory. :D
  • IkonNavrosIkonNavros Posts: 227Member
    Call it if you want hardcoded zoom, but the picture speaks different. 3 times the same resolution. The first one is from Baldur's Gate, the second one is if you completly zoom out in the EE - it is still bigger as the Non EE-BG - How can that be if there is no hardcoded zoom?

    Magic? :)
  • BelgarathMTHBelgarathMTH Posts: 2,485Member
    edited December 2012
    @AndreaColombo, so, "The reviewer does not seem to understand completely the algorithms involved in upscaling resolution..." or, "Some of the reviewer's opinions about the graphical resolution could be based in a fundamental misunderstanding of..."

    Come on. There's no possible motivation for using language like "That's a blatant lie!", than to express anger, and to diminish, hurt, or otherwise attack the person who based an opinion on incorrect factual information. It is also a "lie" unto itself, as the accused was not in fact "lying", but expressing his or her true state of mind. There is a huge difference between "lying" and "being wrong". And even the word "wrong" has many more diplomatic phrasings with milder, less hurtful connotations.
    Post edited by BelgarathMTH on
  • darthchairdarthchair Posts: 191Member
    Doesn't this conversation ever get old? Oi. Kind of off topic now. This thread is about the game's review.
  • AndreaColomboAndreaColombo Posts: 4,812Member, Moderator, BGEE Team Member, Beta Tester
    @Zeckul, shall you chime in with some technical perspective on upscaling?
  • FrecheFreche Posts: 378Member
    Aosaw said:

    I would have liked to see more optimism regarding future patches, which is sadly barren here--and he also didn't mention that the people having issues are having those issues due to hardware incompatibilities, not anything specific in the game's engine (although they're working on resolving those issues as well).

    While he could have mentioned that there are plans for patches and support, a review should be based on the current state of the game and not ifs and maybes. If the game will be patched and improved enough they can make a re-review.

    Also an review should focus on the enhanced parts and not things that are there from vanilla.
    This one does a good job at that.

  • MornmagorMornmagor Posts: 1,098Member
    The max zoom out of BG:EE in my screen is the same with what you show at the 1st screen, maybe a bit bigger.

    I also don't notice blurriness at the max zoom, only if zoom in more than 3 scroll clicks.

    Isn't it obvious that if you zoom in, you will notice backround blur?

    I remember everyone at forums shouting that with widescreen mod you can't play on anything above 1280x720, and that was true in my case as well.
  • IkonNavrosIkonNavros Posts: 227Member
    Off Topic.. Partly. Since we do indeed talk about parts of the review.

    But it has gone indeed to far, so here a last post with 3 more pictures:

    1) Baldur's Gate Non EE: http://imageshack.us/a/img24/6135/1bgt.png

    2) EE without Zoom: http://imageshack.us/a/img593/4461/2bgeenozoom.png

    3) EE Game Loading State: http://imageshack.us/a/img195/2456/3bgeeloadzoom.png

    That is all what i have to say :)
  • AndreaColomboAndreaColombo Posts: 4,812Member, Moderator, BGEE Team Member, Beta Tester
    The picture you describe as "without zoom" is actually zoomed out, and is therefore making use of the upscaling algorithm. What you call "loading state" is native resolution, and the only difference I can see with BGT is that the latter is smaller; sharpness is the same.
  • MornmagorMornmagor Posts: 1,098Member
    edited December 2012
    This is the actual max zoom out of BG:EE.

    http://img211.imageshack.us/img211/5213/baldr000.png

    Extra sharpness was added to the original, as done by the mod, to make it look better.

    It doesn't look better for me.

    BG:EE looks better in my eyes.

    If you don't have art assets, of course you don't try to add sharpening, blurriness when you zoom in is fine.

    It's like trying to make Wii graphics into high definition by using HDMI. You don't do that.

    If you apply blur it hides pixelation, i would be up for that all over actually.

    Also, you can't realistically play well in above 1280x720 res without straining your eyes.
    Post edited by Mornmagor on
    AndreaColomboAnton
  • KenyonKenyon Posts: 101Member, Beta Tester
    I don't exactly get what IkonNavros means... The non-EE BG (with widescreen mod) puts the game at a much higher resolution than what was intended. The advantage is that it retains sharpness (because nothing is rescaled), but the major disadvantage (in my eyes) is that everything is much, much too small. I can't even really enjoy the artwork from that distance! And so I much prefer EE's way of handling it (mind you, I haven't ordered it yet so I'll have to wait before I can see it myself). Is there something I misunderstand about this?
    TJ_Hooker
  • IkonNavrosIkonNavros Posts: 227Member
    @AndreaColombo without zoom... in other words, mouswheel in complete zoomed out mode... had to rush to grab my food, sorry :D

    but yeah, right. but loading state is only the native resolution from the EE - when you load a game.

    And the last 2 pictures compared with the first one from the NOn-EE do show what happens if there is no fixed zoom value added, you have a bit more crips picture, perhaps the difference IS small, but it is still a bit better as the zoomed out EE Pic :)

    Means, if the user could control the zoom fully - including the option to use native resolution like how it is seen in the Non-EE you could have the most sharp picture available in the EE too :D

    And if it is too small, just use the mouswheel to zoom in again.

    It is not about zoom or not zoom.. The user should also have the Chance, to have an unmodified visual available.. That is not that complicated :)
  • IkonNavrosIkonNavros Posts: 227Member
    edited December 2012
    @Kenyon In short simple words.. The EE forces the user to accept a zoom level, you cannot remove. even if you zoom out, there is still a certain level available. You simply can not reach a resolution which is zoom free, since it is hardcoded :)

    And what would remove that problem? A small switch in the graphic options which would be called Root-Zoom Off :D

    Disadvantage.. do not forget you have at the EE the user controlled zoom... Why forcing a certain zoom too then?
    Post edited by IkonNavros on
  • AndreaColomboAndreaColombo Posts: 4,812Member, Moderator, BGEE Team Member, Beta Tester

    @AndreaColombo without zoom... in other words, mouswheel in complete zoomed out mode... )

    No.
    Mouse in complete zoomed-out mode = higher resolution than what BG:EE is set to on your computer.
    That's part of the zoom feature. When you load the game, it starts at your monitor's resolution: that's "native" (or 1:1, or zoom-free).
    If you zoom out completely, you're actually revealing more area than your native resolution would allow, and you're therefore making use of the upscaling algorithm.
    This is what I've been trying to explain for a few posts.
    elminster
  • Metal_HurlantMetal_Hurlant Posts: 267Member
    The review is fair and spot on. BGEE needs more work done on it and the game is still in Beta.
  • MornmagorMornmagor Posts: 1,098Member
    Some times i ask people, is this image more blurred, or is this more sharpened?

    Guess what, they don't know.

    Adding sharpening to support high resolutions is the wrong way to go when you deal with low resolution images in the first place.

    Sharpening like used through mods, or vanilla widescreen do not make the game look better for everyone.

    Sharpening works fine on high resolution images.

    Try to play games on Wii on high definition, or SNES games, by "sharpening" them. The game was never meant to be played in high definition.

    I completely disagree that sharpened images look better for BG. Sharpening algorithms like the ones used in widescreen mod give a more fake look to the game for me.

    I fail to see what the fuss is about with this "blur".
  • IkonNavrosIkonNavros Posts: 227Member
    @AndreaColombo You said it in your own words, you can not escape a certain zoom :) No matter if you zoom in or out, the algorythm is always there.

    So no matter, in which direction you go, the algorythm influences the picture. And to reach a native Non EE Resolution, there would be a button necessary in the graphic menu which is called OFF - You still can use the Mouswheelzoom, but the normal zoom which appears in the beginning, when you are loading the game, or starting the game would be zoom free then.

    = Native Non EE Resolution
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