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Find Familiar

SanguiniusSanguinius Posts: 4Member
edited September 2012 in Archive (General Discussion)
Will this spell be implemented into BG:EE never played bg 1 with any mods or anything but surely this lvl1 spell will massively help a lvl 1 mage in terms of a hp increase plus the other benefits of a half decent support minion which while was terrible in bg2/tob for dmg could easily defeat every low level kobold with ease?
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Comments

  • lvdisturbed1lvdisturbed1 Posts: 16Member
    Even if it weren't added I wouldn't worry too much. Seeing as the game is running off the ToB engine, I'm sure a mod could easily add it.
  • SanguiniusSanguinius Posts: 4Member
    id like it to be in the game but in its bg2 format its surely overpowered for an actual lvl1 mage?
  • sandmanCCLsandmanCCL Posts: 1,389Member
    The only one that is "overpowered" is the one with polymorph self because turning itself into a bear early is really, really good.

    Other than that, they aren't gamebreaking. They still tend to die if you leave them out and that's a huge hit to your HP pool as a mage. I've utilized them in BGtutu before. Never found them amazing.
    QuartzIchigoRXC
  • CheesebellyCheesebelly Posts: 1,650Member, BG:EE Beta
    Question is - can they still kill Elminster(s)? O_O
  • ShinShin Posts: 2,209Member, BG:EE Beta
    What @sandmanCCL says. The only way the others are overpowered is that they let the mage get out of being ridiculously weak for the first 2-3 levels. Considering how much power they wield later on, some people feel they deserve that weakness.
    Quartz
  • SanguiniusSanguinius Posts: 4Member
    most of the bg2 familiars had 24 or 48 hp? and while i agree there combat abilities are pretty terrible in bg2 the dragons had what ac -2 with 3 attacks that what a lvl 4-5 fighter kind of ability level?
    Raklin
  • jolly_bbjolly_bb Posts: 122Member

    most of the bg2 familiars had 24 or 48 hp? and while i agree there combat abilities are pretty terrible in bg2 the dragons had what ac -2 with 3 attacks that what a lvl 4-5 fighter kind of ability level?

    pretty sure familiar hp never gets above 24 (actually rabbit - true neutral familiar - has even less, 16 hp).

    while 8-12hp boost for a mage is significant within 1-3 lvl i see no reason to ban find familiar spell (or make it unavailable till later in the game).
    for balancing i'd rather have mages nerfed above lvl 18 then have them even crappier at early game, as they already suck big time having 4-6 hp at the beginning....

  • EvinfuiltEvinfuilt Posts: 504Member
    The familiar just need to "level up" with the mage. I know that's a lot more work, but then they can make the scroll available in Candlekeep (locked in a drawer.)
    QuartzLordsDarkKnight185Permidion_Stark
  • MatteoTuriniMatteoTurini Posts: 105Member
    Mages are ridiculously weak at levels 1-3, if compared with any other class (except maybe for thieves, but then again, thieves take exactly half of mages' XPs to level up). So, a familiar who gives 8-12 HPs is a nice addition to make them enjoyable again on their own merits at low levels (and not just killing enemies with the rest of the party while waiting 'till the mage is 4 or 5 levels into the game).

    Plus, given that the familiar bonuses don't scale up, they become less and less useful while the mage grows in power, so that at higher levels (when the mage is actually one of the most powerful classes of all) the mage doesn't get a particularly good bonus from them.
    MortiannaSpaceInvader
  • Space_hamsterSpace_hamster Posts: 950Member
    Now that I have been watching Game of Thrones, I have a new appreciation for pseudo-dragon familiars (ie. season 2 finale...you know which scene!) :)
    BelgarathMTHRAM021SirHables
  • AshendilAshendil Posts: 56Member
    I think find familiar definitely should be included.
  • ajwzajwz Posts: 3,749Member, BG:EE Beta
    The problem with the familiar levelling up with the mage fix is wildmages, who can cast way above thier level.
  • kilroy_was_herekilroy_was_here Posts: 455Member
    What about the rarely used 'talk to familiar' option? If they included them in BG1, that's more dialogue for the writers to come up with.
    LaflammeSpaceInvaderCandramelekh
  • LemernisLemernis Posts: 4,088Member, Moderator, BG:EE Beta
    I asked about this in the FAQ thread and haven't received an answer as yet.
  • Space_hamsterSpace_hamster Posts: 950Member
    A familiar could really imbalance BGI.
  • MortiannaMortianna Posts: 1,147Member

    The only one that is "overpowered" is the one with polymorph self because turning itself into a bear early is really, really good.

    Other than that, they aren't gamebreaking. They still tend to die if you leave them out and that's a huge hit to your HP pool as a mage. I've utilized them in BGtutu before. Never found them amazing.

    In BGTutu, your familiar starts out with only 12hp, giving your PC a 6 hp boost. It think that's pretty balanced, especially when sending your familiar into battle could cost your PC a point of Constitution and hp in one squish.
    SpaceInvader
  • ScooterScooter Posts: 179Member
    Nathan said in the AMAA that there would be changes to the find familiar spell. So I'm guessing that means it will be implemented and hopefully be a little better in terms of both balance in BG1 and usefulness in BG2
    Quartz
  • BrudeBrude Posts: 560Member
    Mortianna said:

    In BGTutu, your familiar starts out with only 12hp, giving your PC a 6 hp boost. It think that's pretty balanced, especially when sending your familiar into battle could cost your PC a point of Constitution and hp in one squish.

    Uh, what? There might have been more mods at play (overwriting whatever), but when my Sorcerer cast Find Familiar in Candlekeep, I got the full 12hp bonus.

    Casting Armor after that meant I could walk out the front gates with the same level of protection and *more* HP than a half-Orc barbarian.

    That's a bit silly.
  • DebaserDebaser Posts: 630Member
    If it's in game I would just automatically take the spell upon creation with armor, I just rolled a wild mage in TuTu with fantastic stats actually who has it, and it's nothing major.
  • MatteoTuriniMatteoTurini Posts: 105Member
    edited September 2012
    Brude said:

    Casting Armor after that meant I could walk out the front gates with the same level of protection and *more* HP than a half-Orc barbarian.

    That's a bit silly.

    Yeah, but you'd still be kicked hard by said half-orc barbarian. You could have 18 STR, 18 DEX and 16 CON for a whoopping 6+12=18 HPs and cast Armor for AC 2, and throw a Magic Missle for the fun to the barbarian, but then you'd be figthing a raging war-machine with AC 4, 13 HPs (assuming max damage on Magic Missile, it still has CON 23 in rage, that gives it a little regeneration too), STR 23, Thac0 14 and something like 1d8+13 damages for 1+1/2 attack per round - you'd be figthing it with your powerful staff, Thac0 19 and 1d6+2 damages.

    My best guess is that you'd be dead in max 2 rounds (two rounds AFTER having cast Armor AND Magic Missle, thrown in as a bonus), and if you're lucky you could have landend 5 or 6 damages with the staff. (Also, don't think that throwing darts from a distance could gain you any advantage, because the barbarian is even faster than you!)

    On top of that, s/he levels up at 2000 XPs, you level up at 2500.

    So, if there's some other consideration that I don't get, fine, but I wouldn't really be afraid that Find Familiar would be overpowering for mages or sorcerers... (Nor that it's not "realistic," because, well... Son of Bhaal and all.)
    Post edited by MatteoTurini on
    jolly_bbSenash
  • BrudeBrude Posts: 560Member
    @MatteoTurini Uh, what? Weird tangent. I wasn't making the comparison in any kind of 1v1 or PvP sense. I was making the comparison to point out the ridiculousness of a low level mage with a big HP pool.

    One of the biggest early weaknesses the class has is their lack of hit dice. If you give them *three to four times* as many hit points as they'd normally be allowed, you're going beyond mitigating the weakness to completely removing it.

    It also trivializes the advantages of rolling a fighter (namely, higher HP pools and better damage mitigation). Who would want to roll a pure class fighter or thief when you can double or triple your HP just by casting one spell?

    That's why it's silly. Endgame ToB already has far too much cheese in it. We don't need to start packing it into level 1 characters before they leave Candlekeep.
  • MatteoTuriniMatteoTurini Posts: 105Member
    edited September 2012
    @Brude I am sorry, I must have misread what you wrote and thought you were worried about class balance, and replied that balance shouldn't be a particularly important issues, seen that the classes are, as for now, completely unbalanced anyway.

    I understand now that you were talking about preserving specific class characteristics, like high HPs for fighters, and I get what you're saying (though I'm not much concerned about that aspect either, because spells tend to alter those characteristics anyway). Sorry again.
    Post edited by MatteoTurini on
    LaflammeBrude
  • BrudeBrude Posts: 560Member

    @Brude I am sorry, I must have misread what you wrote and thought you were worried about class balance, and replied that balance shouldn't be a particularly important issues, seen that the classes are, as for now, completely unbalanced anyway.

    I understand now that you were talking about preserving specific class characteristics, like high HPs for fighters, and I get what you're saying (though I'm not much concerned about that aspect either, because spells tend to alter those characteristics anyway). Sorry again.

    @MatteoTurini No worries.

    I'm only concerned with character balance as it relates to difficulty. A big HP pool on a starting mage gives them much more survivability and would make the opening game easier.

    I don't want the core game to be easier. If anything, I want it to be more difficult.

    Candramelekh
  • MortiannaMortianna Posts: 1,147Member
    @Brude I was playing with EasyTutu. I'm pretty sure getting half of your familiar's HP is standard throughout SoA and ToB. I'm curious how it will be in BG:EE.
  • mlnevesemlnevese Posts: 4,840Member, Moderator, BG:EE Beta, IWD:EE Beta
    edited September 2012
    I don't see any reason for it to work differently in BG:EE as one of the advantages of having a familiar for a mage in AD&D has always been the extra HP.

    Of course, in P&P there was no safe place to hide your familiar in a combat, unless you take some magical items that were designed to protect a familiar in consideration, and most players I met through the years preferred not to risk the dangers of having a familiar killed.
    Post edited by mlnevese on
    Dragonspear
  • BrudeBrude Posts: 560Member
    @Mortianna Likewise. Playing with Tutu, Bg2Tweaks, aTweaks, and SCS. The mage familiar gives you +12 HP in Candlekeep (all familiars save one have 24 HP).

    Testing out something else, last night I rolled an elven Fighter/Mage who ended up with 23 HP at the start of the game.

    @mlnevese Does it scale with level on paper? Or is it a flat boost at level one?
  • mlnevesemlnevese Posts: 4,840Member, Moderator, BG:EE Beta, IWD:EE Beta
    @Brude They got an extra HP every level. Also if the familiar died the mage had to pass a system shock roll or die too. If he survived he'd lose one point of Con.
    Brude
  • SenashSenash Posts: 404Member
    Something occured to me a couple of days ago:
    If you are playing a multiplayer game where different people control their own characters (so a "real" multi game,not just a multi session where you create and control all the chars...), are mages who are not protagonists allowed to cast the find familiar spell?

    This is kinda important for me. My brother and I would like to start a multi game together and both of us would like to be sorcerers...
  • CaptRoryCaptRory Posts: 1,413Member
    Here's the deal:

    With Tutu, I could not cast the Find Familiar spell since I wanted my dad to be the protagonist so he could experience the game from the leader position. To fix it, I hosted the game, had my mage as the protagonist, and had her cast it, put it in my pack saved and sent the file back to my dad.

    Here's the rub: If he stays in my inventory it's all good. When I took him out he became the property of my dad's fighter XD

    Annnd at some point he vanished because he's not in my pack anymore. XD
    RAM021
  • TanthalasTanthalas Posts: 6,738Member, BG:EE Beta
    @Senash

    No, only the player considered to be the Bhaalspawn can cast Find Familiar, so only player 1.
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