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Endgame and Transition

GrumpwagonGrumpwagon Posts: 25Member
Two requests:

1. I seem to remember BG ends after you kill the final boss. I request that this not happen. Let me tromp around the Sword Coast as long I want please. Or at least until I stumble on a quest that leads to my whole party getting kidnapped in the night which would . . .

2. . . . transition BG1 into BG2 better. It would also be nice if BG1 somehow kept track of character defining moments, such as NPC deaths or romance arcs, for BG2 and ToB to recall and reflect. (Also let us keep our hard earned gear in BG2, or at least let us find the people Jon sold it all to.)

SUPER BONUS REQUEST: This suggestion is for way down the line, but I personally loved the mods that let me go back to BG1 maps from BG2. I'd love to see enhanced BG2 and ToB released as giant DLC for BG1, basically just making the world bigger. Since there's already going to be new quests, reaching BG2 could unlock a few high level quests in BG1 areas, and reaching ToB could unlock even more in both BG1 and BG2 areas (once you're able to get back to them).

I don't play RPG's to beat RPG's. I go on quests to beat quests. The Game Over moment is a punishment. Replace it with a reward: a sandbox. Let us, at the very least, just wander around the land we saved/dominated.


EDIT: So far no substantial responses to my main points, and I think that's mostly my fault for including this last part. It should have gone to the post-ship thread if anywhere. To clarify my second request: if the devs are going to make new content for BGEE and are considering making BG2EE, I hope this time around the things players do with the new content, at the very least, will be remembered in BG2EE. I can't imagine anyone thinking that growing attached to a new NPC only to see that NPC get killed off or disappear without explanation in a second game would be a good thing -- plenty of instances like this with how the original games were handled.

I'm afraid my first request is going to be forever lost in the mix. My fault for not keeping to one request per post I suppose.
Post edited by Grumpwagon on

Comments

  • WardWard Posts: 1,233Member
    edited July 2012
    I don't want to keep my gear, as if Jon would let you keep your gear.

    "Yes.. yes, I near unlocking your power. But here, keep your Ring of Free Action plus all your other overpowered junk. It isn't like you need it."

    COME ON. There is no way around it, to all those who want to keep their stuff, he will HAVE to steal it.

    I don't want it to be one big game. I like a break. I like to finish BG1 and begin BG2. If it just keeps going I will feel like I am getting nowhere and tire.
    Post edited by Ward on
    ScooterJayKayAnton
  • GrumpwagonGrumpwagon Posts: 25Member
    edited July 2012
    Like I said:

    . . . or at least let us find the people Jon sold it all to.)

    You know: so we can buy them back . . . steal them . . . take them by force. Or find it all stashed away somewhere in Jon's lair. Or something like this. Perhaps he broken down a few pieces of gear for magical ingredients or something making them irrecoverable, but let us have a few of our old toys.

    How would making future BG games as expansions for BGEE instead of separate games create that problem for you? The wait between releases won't be enough of a break? The main story arcs will still have their definite endings, but you'll be able to explore afterwards. Once you "beat" BG1, you'd be able to start BG2 with that character whenever you want or just keep questing around BG1.

    But these are all my ancillary requests for future content. My main requests for BGEE were:

    1. I seem to remember BG ends after you kill the final boss. I request that this not happen. Let me tromp around the Sword Coast as long I want please. Or at least until I stumble on a quest that leads to my whole party getting kidnapped in the night which would . . .

    2. . . . transition BG1 into BG2 better. It would also be nice if BG1 somehow kept track of character defining moments, such as NPC deaths or romance arcs, for BG2 and ToB to recall and reflect.

    Addendum for that last request: I don't think it was possible to print out your journal originally. That would be cool.
    Post edited by Grumpwagon on
  • AranneasAranneas Posts: 282Member
    Re:your gear: One statement from the manual implied that certain items could be found around Irenicus' dungeon if you started the game with them. Presumably Irenicus would have found them worth keeping, either to experiment with or to provide to an underling. The only items that I actually recall making the transition (aside from the guaranteed ones, such as the Chain of the Dead and Balduran's Helm) would be Varscona, which replaces a generic Longsword +1, and the Bronze Pantaloons. Could easily add more 'conditional' items to the list while still having it make sense.
    Grumpwagon
  • GrumpwagonGrumpwagon Posts: 25Member
    Any non-miscellaneous, non-consumable item with a +3 or unique name, for instance.

    But we're way out in post-ship BG2EE waters here.

    My main requests/concerns are whether I can keep playing after I kill Sarevok and if BG2EE is being kept in mind while working on BGEE as far as PCs transitioning from one to the other.

    For the former, I hated having to save my game right before the final fight and then !!not do the final fight!! so I could quest around more with the same group.

    For the latter, as the PCs transitioned from one game to the next there were all kinds of glaring continuity issues -- obvious things like "Wasn't that guy dead?" Some or all of these things might be unrealistic to try and fix. I can see BG2EE easily remembering that Minsc died or hated your evil guts in BGEE and has no place in your beginning party, but Imoen is a whole different story. But as far as NEW content like NPCs and romance options that are going to be introduced in BGEE, I hope they are left in tact when and if we transition to BG2EE.
  • FrozenCellsFrozenCells Posts: 323Member
    I would like to see the NPCs you take in BG1 carried over and brought up to BG2 levels of interaction for BG2:EE. It's established that Imoen was with you in Candlekeep growing up so it doesn't really need to be a requirement that you kept her for her to be in the dungeon. I really dislike waking up in that dungeon and seeing bloody Minsc and Jaheira, i.e. the idiot and the bitch (sorry, personal likes and dislikes vary :P) who I never use in BG1, acting as if we're best buds or something.

    Not really that interested in continuing the Sword Coast after Sarevok but I suppose it wouldn't be much trouble to give you the choice of delaying your transition. Like in BGTrilogy you don't progress until you speak to the Grand Duke in Baldur's Gate.
  • g314g314 Posts: 201Member
    edited July 2012

    I would like to see the NPCs you take in BG1 carried over and brought up to BG2 levels of interaction for BG2:EE. It's established that Imoen was with you in Candlekeep growing up so it doesn't really need to be a requirement that you kept her for her to be in the dungeon. I really dislike waking up in that dungeon and seeing bloody Minsc and Jaheira, i.e. the idiot and the bitch (sorry, personal likes and dislikes vary :P) who I never use in BG1, acting as if we're best buds or something.

    Not really that interested in continuing the Sword Coast after Sarevok but I suppose it wouldn't be much trouble to give you the choice of delaying your transition. Like in BGTrilogy you don't progress until you speak to the Grand Duke in Baldur's Gate.

    Fifty-fifty here. I use both Imoen and Minsc (not because of plot reasons, but just because I like them =) ), but I always disliked Jaheira and never kept her in my BG1 party... just to find her again in BG2 and do her quests because she was considered a key character. What a nightmare!

    I'm afraid, though, that allowing the player to retain their BG1 party would further complicate programming as they would have to rewrite banters between you and them and with other NPCs. But don't get me wrong: I'm a fan of a more BG1-ish party in BG2 and just add Aerie to replace Dynaheir and then Sarevok.

    I wish I can add Sarevok as an extra (7th) party member to avoid ditching someone I kept for a very long time, but I doubt this will ever happen. Wish at least I could use a cheat like NWN2 to create an additional slot for him, but then again, I find it hard to occur.

    Also, would some character you take from BG1 die by Irenicus' hand like Khalid and Dynaheir?

    As for a BGT-like transition, I'm on the fence, since I prefer the classic BW standard with the ending movie, enjoy "Tiax Rock" and "Soldier's Trance" for the credits and finally fire up the other game. But yes, I would expect this more like a custom mod that would unify both EEs into a single game. One thing that I didn't like in BGT is that I had to manually swap music files out, and that's pretty annoying. Hope this would be made easier for modders.
    Post edited by g314 on
  • GrumpwagonGrumpwagon Posts: 25Member

    It's established that Imoen was with you in Candlekeep growing up so it doesn't really need to be a requirement that you kept her for her to be in the dungeon.

    But what if she died in BG1? This is one of the big issues with keeping BG2 completely up to speed with PC actions in BG1. I don't think reasons like this are good enough to deter the devs from trying anyway. Sure they'll have to fudge a few details, but the original games fudged A LOT of details. If you can't tell, I was a BGTrilogy fan so I'm really hoping for a similar treatment in the Enhanced Editions. If they're successful enough to put out all three games, they'll have been successful enough to want to release a bunch of DLC. So if they merge all three BG1:EE, BG2:EE and ToB:EE world maps into one as they go along, they'll have given themselves a lot more freedom for how to make said DLC.

    Anyway, I think a lot of this should have gone to the post-ship request thread, so I'm going to stop responding here and edit the OP to reflect this. If a moderator is watching this, it would be nice to just have a separate forum for post-ship requests instead of a single thread. You're going to need one eventually anyway.
  • TanthalasTanthalas Posts: 6,738Member, Beta Tester
    @Grumpwagon

    I can't make subforums, but I think that there isn't a need for one.

    All requests are options for post-release.
  • jaysl659jaysl659 Posts: 536Member


    My main requests/concerns are whether I can keep playing after I kill Sarevok and if BG2EE is being kept in mind while working on BGEE as far as PCs transitioning from one to the other.

    For the former, I hated having to save my game right before the final fight and then !!not do the final fight!! so I could quest around more with the same group.

    Post final-battle adventuring? Maybe it just doesn't appeal to me as I always do all the quests before getting to the final battle. What's left to do? I guess I could go around murdering every person in avery area of the game world (might bring back some fond memories of Fallout).

    In all seriousness, I'm not sure that the game is well suited for it, and how would you combine a BGT-style transition (which I'm in support of) I think you said specifically getting kidnapped while adventuring, with sandboxxing after the final battle? Would a condition be set that a certain amount of time would pass before the transition? Obviously this wouldn't work as those that had just finished the game would then have to wait around until enough time had passed for the condition to be met. I do generally like all ideas concerning consistency, I want that which happens in BG1 to affect BG2, and I like NPCs having consistent stats, etc.

    As for keeping your BG1 items, I'm against it completely. It is appealing in that it's sweet to have a bunch of powerful gear, but the game was designed to be balanced around you not having your old gear at the beginning of BG2, and adding it back would make the beginning of the game too easy. Maybe if a couple of specific items made their way into the hands of a merchant from whom you would have to purchase said items, then I'd be okay with it. Having all of your old gear available takes something away from the atmosphere of the game I think.

    As for an end game transition like in BGT, I'm in support of it. Something very similar, like a conversation that triggers as soon as you come back up from the maze, would add some nice continuity as there is at least some explained reason for traveling to Athkatla.
    GrumpwagonScooter
  • GrumpwagonGrumpwagon Posts: 25Member
    This is all very reasonable. The merchant idea for BG1 items in BG2 was exactly what I had in mind, but I was trying to leave it open ended because there might be other ways to achieve the same effect. Having everything from BG1, at least immediately, would absolutely unbalance the game, but I'd like to be rewarded at least a little bit for going through the first game before starting the second. At the very least, it would be nice to see any of the powerful items that you can only find in BG1 be unlocked in such merchant shops, or perhaps lootable off certain NPC's or dungeons, so long as you actually had them on your characters before importing them.

    As far as post final battle exploring: it's not that hard to finish the game without completing all the side quests, especially with TotSC content, not to mention whatever new content we're going to see. And it always feels weird putting off the main quest at any point during it to go sandboxing around the coast. "Sarevok's power play is in full swing? Pfft. He can wait. I've got other dungeons to delve." It'd be nice to be allowed to get fully swept up by and put your full focus on completing the main arc AND THEN do the side stuff and DLC (with sweet loot from Sarevok in tow, no less, wink wink request wink).

    Once and if BG2EE is released, players still exploring BG1 should be able to easily transition to BG2 whenever they want, either from the main menu or ingame via an obvious GO HERE TO START BG2 location/quest. Simply waiting around to be kidnapped probably wouldn't work, no, but actively doing something/going somewhere that will lead to that event could. And the devs wouldn't want to make it obvious that you're about to get kidnapped for the sake of new players, but very obvious that you're about to start the next game. Perhaps something as simple as a location opening up on the world map with a big sign over it effectively saying "BALDUR'S GATE 2." Players are free to think, "Okay, cool, but I have unfinished business to attend to."
  • charmercharmer Posts: 15Member
    I'd maybe keep it simple and take another approach on Endgame and Transition.

    How about to create two small DLCs that would fill in the blanks between BG1 and BG2 and also between SoA and ToB?

    In both cases I think some major questions have been left unanswered and the whole Enhanced Edition business presents a perfect opportunity to explore these two periods, preferably in some unorthodox way rather than as some additional hack-n-slash episodes.

    But maybe this is a separate feature request...
  • CorvinoCorvino Posts: 2,259Member
    One way to approach the transition could be to have the game recognise if Minsc, Jaheira & Imoen were not in your party at the end of BG and perhaps use one of the new NPCs to give a better reason for them to be there.

    For example: Charname wakes up and, wait a second, what's Jaheira doing here? She and Khalid were looking into a powerful & dangerous mage with the assistance of a certain new Monk/Wild mage/Blackguard +/- Minsc & Dynaheir +/- Imoen. We use a new NPC to tell the story or at act as a prompt in order to meet the contractual need for no new dialogue unless it's related to new NPCs. It's far from perfect but it's an okay fudge to get around the canon party thing.

    Also, I read somewhere that there's a merchant in the City of Baldur's gate whose inventory is transferred over to a Waukeen's promenade merchant in BG2. This could be a way to get items like the Cloak of Balduran into BG2. (Just googled it and had a look, the topic's here: http://www.gamebanshee.com/forums/threads/baldurs-gate-enhanced-edition.120165/page-3 post #46. Looks like it might be the result of a mod reather than an original feature)
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