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Dorn left my party because reputation was too high.....

Problem is, I had loaded him up with a bunch of magic items and stuff and he bolted with them. Is there any way to get the stuff back? I know I could reload, but I played for some time after he left. Now I might have the worst party ever. My Paladin, Branwen, Garrick, Imoen, Neera, and and Elf Fighter/Thief. When he took off, I lost alot of items he was carrying.
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Comments

  • Irish437Irish437 Posts: 16Member
    Problem is, I had loaded him up with a bunch of magic items and stuff and he bolted with them. Is there any way to get the stuff back? I know I could reload, but I played for some time after he left. Now I might have the worst party ever. My Paladin, Branwen, Garrick, Imoen, Neera, and and Elf Fighter/Thief. When he took off, I lost alot of items he was carrying.

  • Irish437Irish437 Posts: 16Member
    Mods, please delete from this section if this is considered a spoiler. I posted in other section.
  • MalicronMalicron Posts: 539Member
    Short of CLUAConsole-ing them in, you'll need to reload.
  • Awong124Awong124 Posts: 2,555Member
    edited June 2013
    If you just want to get your stuff back but have no intention of ever recruiting him again, you could just kill him and loot your stuff off his dead body. He should be in the Friendly Arm Inn.
    Post edited by Awong124 on
  • Awong124Awong124 Posts: 2,555Member
    If you just want to get your stuff back but have no intention of ever recruiting him again, you could just kill him and loot your stuff off his dead body. He should be in the Friendly Arm Inn.
    TJ_Hooker
  • the_spyderthe_spyder Posts: 3,292Member
    Awong124 said:

    If you just want to get your stuff back but have no intention of ever recruiting him again, you could just kill him and loot your stuff off his dead body. He should be in the Friendly Arm Inn.

    Because that is what a Party lead by a Paladin and including Branwen and Imoen would do. LOL

    But then it really does explain why Dorn left with all of the best stuff. Serves them right, the "goodie-goodies"! let em all rot.

  • Awong124Awong124 Posts: 2,555Member
    Well, it would be a Paladin's duty to kill an evil Blackguard. The Paladin in one of the inns in Baldur's Gate attacks you on sight if you have any evil members in the group.
    TJ_HookerMalicronMoomintroll
  • MalicronMalicron Posts: 539Member
    Yeah, blackgaurds used to be called anti-paladins, you know. I think if this were pen and paper you'd be well and truly fallen for traveling with Dorn.
  • kamuizinkamuizin Posts: 3,269Member
    Awong124 said:

    Well, it would be a Paladin's duty to kill an evil Blackguard. The Paladin in one of the inns in Baldur's Gate attacks you on sight if you have any evil members in the group.

    Isn't Phandalyn a dangeours sociopath?
  • the_spyderthe_spyder Posts: 3,292Member
    TJ_Hooker said:

    Awong124 said:

    If you just want to get your stuff back but have no intention of ever recruiting him again, you could just kill him and loot your stuff off his dead body. He should be in the Friendly Arm Inn.

    Because that is what a Party lead by a Paladin and including Branwen and Imoen would do. LOL
    Well it's probably no less paladin-y than adventuring with Dorn in the first place.
    True enough. Nor could I see a paladin simply letting the Blackguard keep all of the best stuff. Not unless his INT was a dump stat of 4.

  • JarrakulJarrakul Posts: 421Member
    I think it's well within the paladin's moral authority to watch over Dorn and make sure he doesn't do evil. If Dorn leaves your custody because your reputation is too high, it's pretty clear that he's intending to hurt people (especially because hurting people is basically all he talks about). I think hunting him down and ending the threat he poses is not only acceptable, it's the paladin's moral obligation.
    georgelappiesRnRClown
  • the_spyderthe_spyder Posts: 3,292Member
    For me, that is pretty situational on the ethics side and spurious on the logic side. Adventuring as Charname does pretty much requires a trust and reliance on one's companions to a level that I can't necessarily see a Paladin doing with a self proclaimed Blackgard with Dorn's personality and proclivities. It is one thing to watch over such a person, but quite another to stand back to back with him while enemies are attacking you. The first time Dorn declared a desire to burn a village to the ground, i think the Paladin would turn him in to the Fist for justice.

    As for jumping to the conclusion that any stolen items are being used expressly for the purpose of hurting others, without any proof, seems like quite a stretch. I could see a Paladin tracking Dorn down and demanding the return of the items, but not blanketly just up and killing him outright without finding out what he was up too, particularly in light of the level of trust said paladin would have had to have in him to fight along side him in the first place.

    It's kind of like leaving a Kender in a magic shop and then later confiscating any "Found" items from the kender and not returning them but using them instead, simply because you don't want to pay for them. You are setting up a situation such that you can benefit from it and then using logic to justify your actions. Without proof or evidence, I can't see a Paladin doing that.
  • BelgarathMTHBelgarathMTH Posts: 2,662Member
    Whenever I see these kinds of complaints about evil npc's being evil, from somebody who thinks they're playing a good npc, I think, "Um....what did you expect? They're Eeeeee-viiiiil."

    I've never quite gotten it why some people want to mix Ajantis, Kivan, and/or Minsc and Dynaheir, with the likes of Dorn, Edwin, Xzar and Montaron, (I guess for powergaming, because all those toons are super powerful), and yet they always seem to complain and want a do-over when it doesn't end well.
  • JarrakulJarrakul Posts: 421Member
    @the_spyder: So, I agree that adventuring with someone you don't trust at all is totally moronic and borderline suicidal. It's also exactly the sort of thing a paladin would do, because the paladin job description is basically "does totally moronic and borderline suicidal things for the good of others." The paladin wanted to give Dorn a chance before killing him for being horribly evil, so the paladin game Dorn a sort of probationary leave as long as he behaved. He has now essentially skipped out on his parole, and therefore needs to be dealt with by whatever means necessary.

    Also, the rp explanation has nothing whatsoever to do with the fact that Dorn ran off with the items. He's a threat to innocent life, and must be dealt with. Dorn's not gonna come back into the party, and only the most irresponsible paladin in the Realms would let him wander freely after everything he's openly admitted to doing. Will the paladin loot the items afterwards? I don't see why not. It's not like he wasn't gonna loot all the other evil badguys he killed.
  • SchneidendSchneidend Posts: 3,041Member, IWD:EE Beta
    Malicron said:

    Yeah, blackgaurds used to be called anti-paladins, you know. I think if this were pen and paper you'd be well and truly fallen for traveling with Dorn.

    I don't think the gods, or at least most of the gods militant enough to have lots of paladins, care who you roll with to get the job done. I think Helm will understand you teaming up with Dorn if it prevents the Sword Coast from turning into Sarevok's bloody bubble bath.

  • Aasimar069Aasimar069 Posts: 803Member

    Awong124 said:

    If you just want to get your stuff back but have no intention of ever recruiting him again, you could just kill him and loot your stuff off his dead body. He should be in the Friendly Arm Inn.

    Because that is what a Party lead by a Paladin and including Branwen and Imoen would do. LOL

    But then it really does explain why Dorn left with all of the best stuff. Serves them right, the "goodie-goodies"! let em all rot.


    I'm roleplaying alone, by myself on the computer. That's so fun. ;-)
  • Aasimar069Aasimar069 Posts: 803Member
    edited June 2013

    For me, that is pretty situational on the ethics side and spurious on the logic side. Adventuring as Charname does pretty much requires a trust and reliance on one's companions to a level that I can't necessarily see a Paladin doing with a self proclaimed Blackgard with Dorn's personality and proclivities. It is one thing to watch over such a person, but quite another to stand back to back with him while enemies are attacking you. The first time Dorn declared a desire to burn a village to the ground, i think the Paladin would turn him in to the Fist for justice.

    As for jumping to the conclusion that any stolen items are being used expressly for the purpose of hurting others, without any proof, seems like quite a stretch. I could see a Paladin tracking Dorn down and demanding the return of the items, but not blanketly just up and killing him outright without finding out what he was up too, particularly in light of the level of trust said paladin would have had to have in him to fight along side him in the first place.

    It's kind of like leaving a Kender in a magic shop and then later confiscating any "Found" items from the kender and not returning them but using them instead, simply because you don't want to pay for them. You are setting up a situation such that you can benefit from it and then using logic to justify your actions. Without proof or evidence, I can't see a Paladin doing that.


    I see your point and agree with your words but...

    This is a fuc*ing computer RPG, no one's around. Nothing should prevent him to either :

    - reload and remove the stuff from Dorn's inventory before he leaves.
    - go to the FAI and smack down Dorn without suffering your non-existants RPG friends blame you for this (hey that's not Paladin-like and such).
    - he can even summon the stuff again with the console (oh in fact he can't since it's buged thanks to update 8 lol).
    - he can even lower his reputation if he wants by killing innocent people so that Dorn joins again.

    Don't talk about RPG and so on. This is a computer game. Playing a role for ourself is not right :p PNP with REAL people is far more interesting.

    Post edited by Aasimar069 on
  • the_spyderthe_spyder Posts: 3,292Member
    @Jarrakul - I think you might want to read your post and check it for logic. (all in fun. it's a game. Play the way you like and have fun with).

    @Aasimar069 - LOL. It's all good. My comments were not meant seriously and I apologize if I offended. As you say, it's a single person video game and you can/should play any way that you enjoy. And shouldn't need to get the approval of others who may play differently than yourself. it's all good.
    Aasimar069
  • JarrakulJarrakul Posts: 421Member
    @the_spyder: Would you mind pointing out where I've been logically inconsistent? Because I'm not seeing it. Given the lack of ability to forcibly subdue people without killing them, it seems like the paladin is basically acting like a parole officer. Albeit without the benefit of a trial and judge passing down the initial sentence, but given Dorn's own words and the paladin's Detect Evil ability, I think the paladin is justified in making that call on the field.
  • the_spyderthe_spyder Posts: 3,292Member
    edited June 2013
    @Jarrakul - Just to be clear, I am not trying to pass judgement on how you play. I am not trying to tell you how to have fun. And I am not attempting to say that you or anyone who follows your logic are 'Wrong'. These are all subjective and entirely up to the player and no one else. It's a game. Enjoy it.

    "To ME", I reject your premise that Paladins "does totally moronic and borderline suicidal things for the good of others." But this is merely my point of view.

    Where I find logic flaws is as follows. The paladin in question either trusts Dorn enough to fight side by side (and back to back) against some pretty tough foes instead of merely turning him over to the Flaming Fist or some other organization capable of preventing him from doing evil or he doesn't and he won't travel/fight along side him. The Paladin in question must have reason to believe that he (Dorn) is trustworthy in some degree and there is some chance of redeeming Dorn in the paladin's eyes. The degree to which said paladin must trust Dorn must be quite significant as there are (RP) MUCH easier ways to redeem Dorn or at least make sure he doesn't do Evil that are smarter, safer and more reasonable than charging into combat after combat with the guy who keeps on talking about torching villages.

    to take that to the next level, a simple betrayal of 'Leaving he party in the lurch' should not be enough to change the Paladin's view so completely that he deserves DEATH. If Dorn had Killed members of the party on his way out that might be different, but merely being a coward and opting out would not "TO ME" be enough to make the Paladin do a complete 180 and think that death is the ONLY solution to someone who has stood by the party and quite probably saved most of their lives multiple times.

    Either the Paladin thinks that Dorn is unredemptively evil and deserves DEATH, in which case there is no way he would travel with him at all for any length of time, or he deserves some level of trust and at minimum the opportunity to explain himself. To play it otherwise is to play situational ethics such that "I want Dorn's power in the party up to a point and then when I am done with him, Kill him. Because he is EVIL."

    This is all in my humble opinion and how I would play it. I do NOT say anyone else should see it this way or that their viewpoint is invalid in any way, merely that it is at variance from mine. Play and have fun. No offense intended to anyone.
    Post edited by the_spyder on
    BelgarathMTH
  • MalicronMalicron Posts: 539Member
    Irish437 said:

    I hunted him down at the Friendly Arm in. I just wanted to have a conversation with hum, but he was Rude. He was hard to hit with all that nice equipment I had given him, but in the end it was Neera throwing a Lightning Bolt through him that ended his existance.

    I got my LongBow +2 back along with 2 sets of Bracers some Magic armor, etc. I really needed that Bow back now that I have Coran in the party.

    Oof, a lightning bolt inside the Friendly Arm? Almost as bad as a fireball; how much collateral damage did that cause?
    Awong124BelgarathMTH
  • Awong124Awong124 Posts: 2,555Member
    Malicron said:

    Oof, a lightning bolt inside the Friendly Arm? Almost as bad as a fireball; how much collateral damage did that cause?

    I was thinking the same thing.
    BelgarathMTH
  • JarrakulJarrakul Posts: 421Member
    I get that you're not trying to tell me how to play, etc, and I thank you for that. I think it's an interesting ethical debate, regardless.

    As for paladins doing stupid things for the good of others, understand that I don't think this means paladins are stupid. Rather, I think it means they're noble, willing to put themselves at risk if it would help other people. There's a wonderful exchange from the webcomic Goblins that comes to mind. It's something along the lines of "That sounds terrible, why would anyone want to be a paladin?" "So others don't have to."

    Here's how I see this going. The paladin knows that if he turns Dorn over to the Fist, they'll kill him. The Flaming Fist is not exactly known for their mercy. The paladin, however, wants to do the best for everyone. No exceptions. Because that's what being a paladin is about (some people think it's about mindless killing everything that's evil, but they don't get what it means to be a paragon of goodness). So when Dorn becomes interested in joining the group, the paladin sees a way to keep Dorn from doing evil, and he takes it. Understand, while the paladin does not trust Dorn to be a good person, he has no reason to suspect that Dorn means to hurt the paladin personally, and therefore has no reason not to trust the Dorn with his back. It's perhaps not the safest decision he could make, and the paladin knows that, but he's willing to risk it for Dorn's sake and for the sake of the rest of the Realms.

    As time goes on, two things happen. Dorn continues to be trustworthy in practice, and he starts talking about burning down villages. Dorn is being completely open and forthright, with no signs of deception or betrayal, so the paladin has no reason to actually distrust him. At the same time, it's also increasingly obvious to the paladin that Dorn is too dangerous to let roam unsupervised. Understand, by this time the paladin has a very good understanding of who Dorn is as a person. Not the sort of guy who'd put a sword in his ally's back (he's not exactly okay with the concept of betrayal), but definitely a bad person nonetheless. And then Dorn decides the party is too goody-goody and leaves, and the paladin is faced with a choice.

    He can let Dorn go free, knowing that without the paladin's supervision Dorn will start killing innocent people again, or he can try to reign Dorn in. The paladin is definitionally not okay with the first choice, so he goes with the second. He goes to the Friendly Arm to try and convince Dorn to rejoin. Dorn refuses in no uncertain terms. Again, the paladin has a choice. He can let Dorn go, he can arrest Dorn and turn him over to the Flaming Fist (where Dorn will almost certainly be killed), or he can kill Dorn. In fact, given that Dorn is a dangerous combatant and unlikely to go quietly, the second choice is likely to turn into the third whether the paladin wants it to or not. Again, the paladin finds the first choice unacceptable, and is willing (however unhappily) to trade the life of one evil man for the safety of so many innocents. So the paladin tries to arrest Dorn, but in the ensuing fight is forced to kill the half-orc. It's unfortunate, but no moreso than the deaths of all those bandits he's killed up to this point.
    BelgarathMTHAasimar069RnRClown
  • chuukoguchuukogu Posts: 23Member
    The reputation mechanic is gamey and pretentious, at least when it makes all evil - aligned npcs into stupid evil.
    BelgarathMTH
  • Irish437Irish437 Posts: 16Member
    Malicron said:

    Irish437 said:

    I hunted him down at the Friendly Arm in. I just wanted to have a conversation with hum, but he was Rude. He was hard to hit with all that nice equipment I had given him, but in the end it was Neera throwing a Lightning Bolt through him that ended his existance.

    I got my LongBow +2 back along with 2 sets of Bracers some Magic armor, etc. I really needed that Bow back now that I have Coran in the party.

    Oof, a lightning bolt inside the Friendly Arm? Almost as bad as a fireball; how much collateral damage did that cause?
    The funny thing is, I swear when the fight started all the commoners sitting around drinking their meade got up and ran to the far corner by the barkeep. The kill must have been justified though because noone said anything and my reputation didn't take a hit.

    I guess at the Friendly Arm in, the motto should be "Snitches get Stitches" because noone was talking about the death of Dorn.


    MalicronTJ_HookerBelgarathMTH
  • Awong124Awong124 Posts: 2,555Member
    edited June 2013
    There is never a reputation change when you kill recruitable NPCs. You could go up and backstab Ajantis into a hundred pieces without talking to him and your reputation still won't drop.
    Post edited by Awong124 on
  • the_spyderthe_spyder Posts: 3,292Member
    @Jarrakul - Fair enough. Philosophy 101 commencing.

    I love the quote, but still do not believe that a Paladin "does totally moronic and borderline suicidal things for the good of others." I agree that they may do heroic and self sacrificing things, but I do not agree that the two are analogous in any way. Fighting a dragon to a stand-still knowing that you are going to die but equally knowing that the time you buy will allow innocents to escape is not moronic or suicidal at all. Fighting the same dragon and dying without saving anyone would be moronic and suicidal but I wouldn't play that type of paladin.

    I mentioned giving Dorn over to the Flaming fist "Or other such organization" as an RP alternative. There are/would be several organizations including the Harpers and whatever church the Paladin patrons who would be better able to deal with Dorn without killing him, potentially that the Paladin could (RP) make use of. It doesn't need to be as black and white as is being portrayed in the game. The only reason I can see a Paladin actually taking Dorn into a party for longer than it would take to get him to this type of organization would be if the paladin trusted that Dorn was redeemable in some manner.

    As for learning about him over time, Dorn is pretty straightforward about who he is right from the get go. I can't see any reasonably intelligent Paladin thinking he is anything other than a stone cold killer. and being Lawful good does not mean fatally gullibly stupid in my book. Particularly when it isn't just the Paladin's life at stake, but the entire party. "If" (and this is a HUGE stretch) it were only the paladin and Dorn, I might see the paladin giving it a try, but to put his companions at risk because of Dorn's questionable nature would be an unacceptable risk in my book. And unacceptable would mean either (a) Dorn gets sequestered in some organizations facility that was capable of handling him, (b) Dorn gets given over to the Fist for trial and justice or (c) Dorn gets dealt with and Ended by the paladin.

    And that is why I say that "IF" said paladin by some strange stretch of reality did trust Dorn with not only his life but that of his companions, he wouldn't summarily reverse logic and decide to kill him just for leaving "Because you yobs are too Goodie-goodie". There is a disconnect in my mind with that logic. Particularly considering both Dorns means of exit and his stated reason for leaving. Again, if he traveled with the Paladin's party for any length of time, he would have been instrumental in saving their lives at least once. And being in danger tends to bond a group such that they would at least want to understand before jumping to summary judgement in my book.

    All personal opinion.
    BelgarathMTH
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