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Stalkers, two-weapon-fighting and backstab question

thespacethespace Posts: 726Member, IWD:EE Beta
Stalkers have become my favorite class to play lately (though I've got several different-but-fun games going currently). I've put focus on two weapon fighting, as it seems silly to do otherwise when playing a ranger in 2nd addition (unless it's just for roleplaying reasons), as it wastes one of the great advantages of playing one. I find it slightly annoying that Kivan and Minsc both specialize in two handed weapons and can't be optimized for two weapon fighting in BG1 b/c of this, meaning you can't give 2 pips in say longsword and a 3rd pip in two weapon fighting for Kivan before level cap, for example, b/c he used them up on halberd.

It seems that in order to stay with the two weapon fighting theme, and widen my backstab options, I need to stick with clubs as my first blunt weapon option for my character (already have 2 pips in longsword). I realized this after I chose flail at the 6th level mark and noticed that it doesn't work for backstabbing (can backtrack to earlier save).

My question is this: I know that some creatures are immune to backstab and some immune to edged weapons (need blunt weapons for). Are these the same creatures typically? In other words, can I backstab some creatures using clubs that would be immune to the same with swords?

Also, are there good clubs in BG2? Yes or no will suffice on this one...no need for spoiler please:)
Post edited by thespace on

Comments

  • ajwzajwz Posts: 3,749Member, BG:EE Beta
    There are some pretty decent clubs in bg2 - without any stand outs like the celestial fury for katanas. My personal favourite is
    Spoiler:

    fire tooth
  • CaptRoryCaptRory Posts: 1,419Member
    Isn't there a club that explodes and oen that does acid damage?
    SCARY_WIZARDEudaemonium
  • silofsilof Posts: 4Member
    I think that most of those that are immune to anything except blunt are also immune to backstab. so, no most of the time you would'nt be able to backstab anything more.

    If I was in your shoes I would edit my char to get the pip in the right place.
  • thespacethespace Posts: 726Member, IWD:EE Beta
    @silof If that's the case, then it wouldn't make much difference leaving my pip in flail and just backstabbing with longswords. I have no idea how to edit characters, especially since I'm using a Mac.
  • TressetTresset Posts: 3,149Member, Moderator, BG:EE Beta
    edited May 2013
    EE keeper works for mac. http://forum.baldursgate.com/discussion/16497/ee-keeper-shadow-keeper-for-bgee#latest

    Though there are some good clubs in BG2 I think that clubs are one of the more disappointing weapon options in BG2. None of them really stand out when compared to other weapons. Also there are no +4 clubs and only one +5 club that you can't get until ToB. You will be clubbing with +3 at best for most of the game. Come to think of it, most one handed weapons are +3 at best for most of the game...
    Post edited by Tresset on
  • GoodSteveGoodSteve Posts: 539Member, IWD:EE Beta
    Well, to be honest Flail is a solid choice of weapon come BG2 and ToB because of the Flail of the Ages. Note that when backstabbing you only do so with your main hand so you could always use the flail in your off hand and it wont matter that you cannot backstab with it. You'll have plenty of time to get full pips in Clubs by the time you come across the tough enemies that would require a bludgeoning weapon to hurt (and therefore backstab).
    thespace
  • WowoWowo Posts: 941Member
    edited May 2013
    I love the stalker kit too but it seems a bit pointless playing one in BG1. Ill just save it for when Bg2:EE comes out and enjoy those additional Mage spells and decent backstab multiplier.

    In BG1 on a ranger I'd go for Stupifier (mace) first and then probably scimitars (grab a level 6 Garrick, Alora or Montaron and dose with thievery pot to steal drizzts scimitars).
    Post edited by Wowo on
  • KaltzorKaltzor Posts: 1,031Member
    I may be mistaken, but can't Quarterstaves backstab as well? ...Though it's a two handed not two weapon style... But they should be considered blunt weapons.
    Oxford_Guy
  • lunarlunar Posts: 1,766Member
    Slashing damage (swords) is useless against Clay golems. You need magical blunt weapons to damage them. Other than that, skeletons do resist slashing/piercing greatly, but you can backstab them anyway. Mustard jellies are totally immune to piercing damage, and have some slashing resistance. There are many other enemies that have small damage resistances vs slashing.

    Perhaps a little more important to note is, especially in BG:EE, slashing is the worst when you fight armored enemies. Nearly all armors have negative modifiers to slashing weapon. For example, a platemail has something like -2 or -3 to slashing, so you'll suffer that penalty to hit if you use a sword against an enemy clad in plate. Crushing weapons do not get that penalty and thus have an easier time to hit reliably. And chainmails even give +2 to hit to crushing damage! (the chains press into your flesh and hurt you more) Also, piercing damage is the best against bandits, hobgoblins and those pesky elite hobgoblins. They all have the regular leather armor, which gives +2 to hit to piercing weapons. (in effect, they offer absolutely no protection against daggers/shortswords and missile weapons, so abuse it when you can!)

    In ToB, flail of the ages is one of the best weapons in the game, no doubt about that. Can be upgraded to +5, does brutal elemental damage, hits through stoneskins, slows annoying and dangerous enemies without a save, and is the best damage type:crushing. Greater whirlwinding with FoA+5 can deal with any enemy, unless the enemy is protected from magical weapons.

    Clubs are somewhat weak, especially when compared to quarterstaves. Staves are two handed, but that's actually a boon, with two-handed weapon style, a good, magical quarterstaff can be used with speed factor zero, and since it has a reach too, you can hit ANY melee enemy reliably before he can touch you, run away, then swing again. You'll have the speed, reach, and critical hit frequency superiority. You can beat a 1000 hp enemy with you having only 1 hp this way, with some careful work.

    There are a few new magical clubs in BG:EE, so Jaheira can employ them. Blackblood+3 is a very good weapon in BG2 and can be acquired early, it deals acid damage which goes through stoneskins and perma-kills trolls, of which there are many in BG2. Sadly, it can not touch enemies that require +4 weapons, but there are only a few of them in the game.
    bengoshithespace
  • bengoshibengoshi Posts: 3,605Member, Moderator
    First of all, a stalker can backstab only with the weapon available to a thief: a long sword, a short sword, a katana, a wakazashi, a ninjatõ, a scimitar, a dagger, a club and a quarterstaff.

    So, if you plan to use this ability by a stalker, it’s better to be at least proficient (one pip) in one of those weapons.

    The second thing to consider is Armor AC adjustments.

    Armor Base Armor Slashing Piercing & Missile Crushing
    Leather 8 0 +2 0
    Studded Leather 7 -2 -1 0
    Hide 6 0 +2 0
    Chain mail 5 -2 0 +2
    Split mail 4 0 -1 -2
    Plate mail 3 -3 0 0
    Full Plate mail 1 -4 -3 0

    So, this table shows that different types of weapons are effective against different types of armors.

    I like to use Valygar (a stalker NPC) in BG2 so I usually try to give him proficiencies in different types of weapons.

    I advise to be proficient at least in one crushing weapon and in one slashing weapon. In order to backstab, both these weapons should be able to use by thieves.

    A quarterstaff is out of the equation because you plan to dual-wield.

    So, a club is a must. And there’re good clubs both in BG:EE and BG2 (one of them is especially useful because of acid damage – a real helper against mages). It can be great to backstab skeletons, jellies, golems.

    But sometimes a sword has a damage bigger than a club so I’d choose a sword type you like the most. A wakazashi/ ninjatõ /scimitar is a good choice – for one proficiency you lose penalties in many weapons – some of them have slashing damage, some have piercing damage. And there're Drizzt's scimitars - if you're a good ranger (from RP perspective), you can still pickpocket them.

    A flail cannot be used as a backstab weapon but it’s a very good choice for an open fight – it has crushing damage and in BG2 there’s a flail that is one of the best weapons in the game. A flail in BG:EE is also a not bad pick for an open fight due to its damage.
    lunarthespace
  • thespacethespace Posts: 726Member, IWD:EE Beta
    Great stuff to think about. I appreciate everyone's input.

    So far my stalker has:
    ** longsword (I wanted to maximize my bonuses due to being an elf)
    ** longbow
    *** two weapon fighting
    and I backtracked so that I could re-choose what will be my last slot for BG1, which was flail, however, I'm leaning more towards clubs b/c I want to be able to backstab with them while duel wielding.

    I noticed when I backstab there seems to be a small amount of time before my character seems to be visible. Is he visible as soon as he takes his first swing or is it possible that the backstab can be landed with the off hand on the second swing? If it can only be landed with the first swing, primary hand, then it might be worth it to take flail earlier to hold in the off hand for a follow up smack.
    lunar
  • Oxford_GuyOxford_Guy Posts: 3,688Member, BG:EE Beta
    thespace said:

    Great stuff to think about. I appreciate everyone's input.

    So far my stalker has:
    ** longsword (I wanted to maximize my bonuses due to being an elf)

    Elves actually current get the +1 THAC0 bonus with *all* swords, including scimitars, shortswords, two-handed swords, bastard swords (though you can't backstab with the last two). Not daggers, though. I like picking Scimitars if going the dual-wield route, as then you can use Belm in the off-hand in BG2 for an extra +1 attack (which actually the *main* hand gets), though if playing a Ranger (which has to be good), this would limit you to a +1 Wakazashi until the Cloakwood areas, where you can get a a +2 Scimitar now, unless you have no qualms about a good-aligned character using Drizzt's Scimitars....
    thespace said:


    ** longbow

    Arguably the available shortbows in BG2 are better than the longbows, though this may change in BG2EE
    thespace said:


    *** two weapon fighting
    and I backtracked so that I could re-choose what will be my last slot for BG1, which was flail, however, I'm leaning more towards clubs b/c I want to be able to backstab with them while duel wielding.

    Clubs are a not a bad choice, there's even a +2 one in BGEE
    thespace
  • bengoshibengoshi Posts: 3,605Member, Moderator
    Right now the elven bonus acts not only with long swords but also with any other swords including scimitars. It remains to be seen if it's a bug or an inteded behavior. You become visible as soon as an attack is made - it doesn't matter if you hit or miss. The backstab is made only with the main hand. So if you try to hit from the shadows and miss you become visible.
    thespace[Deleted User]lolien
  • EudaemoniumEudaemonium Posts: 3,196Member, IWD:EE Beta

    though if playing a Ranger (which has to be good), this would limit you to a +1 Wakazashi until the Cloakwood areas, where you can get a a +2 Scimitar now, unless you have no qualms about a good-aligned character using Drizzt's Scimitars....

    There is another +2 Scimitar on the roof of Durlag's Tower, so you aren't completely out of options provided you're okay with some metagaming. I think you might need some open locks, however.
    [Deleted User]
  • Oxford_GuyOxford_Guy Posts: 3,688Member, BG:EE Beta

    though if playing a Ranger (which has to be good), this would limit you to a +1 Wakazashi until the Cloakwood areas, where you can get a a +2 Scimitar now, unless you have no qualms about a good-aligned character using Drizzt's Scimitars....

    There is another +2 Scimitar on the roof of Durlag's Tower, so you aren't completely out of options provided you're okay with some metagaming. I think you might need some open locks, however.
    True, though *very* hard to get until you have a high-level party without extensive metagaming (not even that easy then).

    [Deleted User]
  • EudaemoniumEudaemonium Posts: 3,196Member, IWD:EE Beta
    Well, if you can get to the roof, you have to deal with some Basilisks and Gnolls, which aren't too bad provided you have the requisite petrification protection.
    [Deleted User]
  • thespacethespace Posts: 726Member, IWD:EE Beta
    It seems everyone is a more of a fan of scimitars over longswords. I didn't realize BG had changed the rules for elves and swords, and bows for that matter, as in actual DnD, if memory serves, it was specifically long swords and long bows. Does the lower speed factor make that much of a difference?
  • thespacethespace Posts: 726Member, IWD:EE Beta
    Also, I was under the impression that longswords gave the widest variety of choices throughout the games?
  • TressetTresset Posts: 3,149Member, Moderator, BG:EE Beta
    edited May 2013

    though if playing a Ranger (which has to be good), this would limit you to a +1 Wakazashi until the Cloakwood areas, where you can get a a +2 Scimitar now, unless you have no qualms about a good-aligned character using Drizzt's Scimitars....

    There is another +2 Scimitar on the roof of Durlag's Tower, so you aren't completely out of options provided you're okay with some metagaming. I think you might need some open locks, however.
    True, though *very* hard to get until you have a high-level party without extensive metagaming (not even that easy then).

    @Oxford_Guy I disagree with that statement! Just use potions of invisibility to bypass the monsters and potions of perception to get by the traps. Your thief could do it all by themselves. You will be in and out of there with a new sword (and probably a bunch of other stuff too) in no time! Metagaming? Yes. Extensive and difficult? No.
    Post edited by Tresset on
  • bengoshibengoshi Posts: 3,605Member, Moderator
    The lower speed factor matters most when fighting one on one. You have a possibility to come to your enemy and if you have a lower speed factor with your weapon than this enemy with his weapon - you can hit and run away without retaliation. So the speed factor if it's low can be really useful.
    About long swords I can say that yes, there're many of them in both games and probably more than there're scimitars but the number and quality of the latter are enough. It's hard to define what sword is better - a Drizzt's scimitar or the Varscona long sword. It's a matter of taste, really, although you can take into consideration that a scimitar proficiency gives you pluses not only in slashing weapons but also piercing ones while long swords can only have slashing damage. And I like to wield eastern swords:-)
    thespace
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