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No more ghasts from animate dead?

After the last update, Viconia only managed to summon skeleton warriors with the animate dead spell. The skeleton warriors seems nerfed as well, they're carrying ordinary long swords.

There also seems to be a bug, as they turns hostile if damaged/attacked by party.
Kionai
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Comments

  • BelgarathMTHBelgarathMTH Posts: 2,559Member
    edited December 2012
    Whoa, skeleton warriors? At low level? That's a very powerful monster, and you're supposed to have a 15th level (level corrected as per @Mortianna, below) cleric before you get it.

    I think having ghasts was too strong. The original summoning of regular skellies was more logical.

    Summons have always turned against the caster if they get hurt by an AoE, so I'm not sure what you're complaining about there. Did the pre-patch versions have summons who did not turn on the caster upon being damaged by a party member? If so, that was a bug.

    If they got rid of the ghast-summoning, then I think that was a good idea. Any cleric could dominate all of BG1, solo, using those. Hello, paralyzing touch? Ahem.
    Post edited by BelgarathMTH on
  • MortiannaMortianna Posts: 1,139Member
    @belgarathmth Ah well, creating ghasts was great while it lasted. Looks like we'll have to turn to Tiax if we want any more.

    Btw, clerics have to be 15th level in order to summon skeleton warriors.
    BelgarathMTHCyricist
  • JarlealeJarleale Posts: 105Member
    edited December 2012
    I know, but it seems to be different now - or a bug. Viconia was level 6. Also the skeleton warriors are not so strong. They are resistant to magic, but they was killed by the Eleminster/Gorion doppelgangers.
    Post edited by Jarleale on
  • BelgarathMTHBelgarathMTH Posts: 2,559Member
    @Shandyr, thanks for letting us know that the bug is reported.
  • BelgarathMTHBelgarathMTH Posts: 2,559Member
    @Jarleale, defeated or not, skeleton warriors are much stronger monsters than ghasts.
  • ShandyrShandyr Posts: 2,585Member, Beta Tester
    Heh, that is my job currently, making a bug list and knowing if a bug has already turned in or not xD
    BelgarathMTH
  • JarlealeJarleale Posts: 105Member
    They are not ordinary skeleton warriors. I used Ctrl+Q.

    Following stats:
    HP: 20, AC: 6, THAC0: 15, Dmg: 1D8+1, 1 APR.
    Resistances: 100 % cold and poison, 25 % magic, 40 % slashing, 50 % piercing, 60 % crushing.
    Saves: 5/7/6/5/8
    STR: 16
    DEX: 9
    CON: 9


    Almost as useless as an ordinary skeleton and definately not worth a 3rd level cleric slot.
  • ShandyrShandyr Posts: 2,585Member, Beta Tester
  • BelgarathMTHBelgarathMTH Posts: 2,559Member
    edited December 2012
    @Jarleale, interesting. I'm not sure why they would call them "skeleton warriors", then.

    A lot of people, however, will dispute your assessment of regular skellies as "useless". They are resistant to all forms of attack, and they make excellent distractions and meatshields while your caster gets his spells cast. Enemies will tend to attack them first and waste their best spells on them, as well as to continue to attack them while you unload your spellbook on your enemy.

    Just don't hit a skellie with an AoE!
    Post edited by BelgarathMTH on
  • ShandyrShandyr Posts: 2,585Member, Beta Tester

    meatshields

    Boneshields :P

    JarlealeBelgarathMTHPhyrax
  • JarlealeJarleale Posts: 105Member
    I may be a bit dramatic, but I miss the ghasts. At least there should be a chance (10 %?) to get them.

    They shouldn't be called skeleton warriors though, to avoid confusion.
    BelgarathMTHMortianna
  • BelgarathMTHBelgarathMTH Posts: 2,559Member
    @Shandyr, unless maybe we imagine them as the kind of horror movie skellies who still have pieces of muscle, organ, and flesh dangling from those bones, as well as intact, horribly unlidded eyes staring from the skull sockets. Mwah,hah,hah,hah. (Flash of lightning and clap of thunder..)
    ShandyrlunarMortianna
  • ShandyrShandyr Posts: 2,585Member, Beta Tester
    @belgarathmth those are called zombies :P

    but thanks anyway for increased chance of nightmares this night T_T

    *scared*
    BelgarathMTH
  • BelgarathMTHBelgarathMTH Posts: 2,559Member
    @Shandyr, that might actually make an interesting point of discussion in another topic: at what point of decay does a zombie become a skellie? Does a zombie still depend on functioning internal organs for its animation? If not, isn't a skellie really just a zombie after its flesh is fully gone?

    Dr. Frankenstein. Paging Dr. Frankenstein. Or, perhaps @Mortianna could enlighten us.

    LOL. :>0
    lunar
  • AranthysAranthys Posts: 661Member
    The new summon thing is linked to a bug topic I created, where a suggestion was made, and was taken into account by Seth.
    The ghasts have been replaced by regular skelettons.
    These skeletons grow stronger at level 7, 11 and 15.
    They don't use the right animation right now (the evolution should be more noticeable) and the spell description will probably be updated in the future.
    BelgarathMTHlunarNukenin
  • The user and all related content has been deleted.
    Mortiannaelminster
  • MortiannaMortianna Posts: 1,139Member
    edited December 2012

    @Shandyr, that might actually make an interesting point of discussion in another topic: at what point of decay does a zombie become a skellie? Does a zombie still depend on functioning internal organs for its animation? If not, isn't a skellie really just a zombie after its flesh is fully gone?

    Dr. Frankenstein. Paging Dr. Frankenstein. Or, perhaps @Mortianna could enlighten us.

    LOL. :>0

    Oh, the finer points of D&D necrology! Anyone have one of Van Richten's lorebooks handy?

    I'd say zombies are basically skeletons with extra baggage (meat baggage, that is), but the distinction between a zombie and a skeleton is tricky. Like you mentioned, some skeletons probably have scraps of flesh still clinging to their bones and maybe have an eye or tongue that hasn't yet decayed. Similarly, some zombies that are in an advanced stage of decomposition may have bones showing in some parts. Ultimately, I think it should be based on smell: skeletons are generally done rotting, while zombies aren't.

    I don't think zombies need any of their organs to function since they are animated by (and embued with) negative energy. But, since zombies are still undergoing the processes of decay, there are many more possible hindrances to their movement rate: rigor mortis, broken or twisted leg/back/neck, skin sloughing off, impaled with a spear in a previous battle, etc. Skeletons' bones are held together by the magic that animated them, so they're much lighter and more mobile than zombies (although a fresh zombie animated from a newly-deceased "donor" could conceivably be just as fast as a skeleton, especially if they've had an "Embalm" spell cast upon them).

    A couple of things would definitely make zombies more formidable, imo: (1) Requiring low-level characters to make a fear check (i.e., save vs. death) whenever they encounter one, especially if it's especially ripe and is buzzing with flies and crawling with maggots (I'm sure a talented graphic designer could whip up an animation of this with ease). (2) Require a save vs. death (or else contract a disease) whenever one is hit by a zombie. The decaying dead, despite their unforgettable stench, would most likely carry some sort of parasite or infectious disease that could be passed onto to the living. Maybe it's a good thing player characters can't animate them in BG:EE :)
    Post edited by Mortianna on
    ShandyrlunarBelgarathMTH
  • elminsterelminster Posts: 8,057Member, Beta Tester
    edited December 2012
    The level 7+ skeletal warriors seems to always drop a long sword +1 upon death. $$$ :D
    Post edited by elminster on
    Jarleale
  • CaptRoryCaptRory Posts: 1,363Member
    Just horde a pack full of them and sell them all in one go =3
    elminster
  • ZanathKariashiZanathKariashi Posts: 2,770Member
    Yeah, they've already got a correction for that. Once the spell gets updated again their gear is undroppable.
  • CheesebellyCheesebelly Posts: 1,650Member, Beta Tester
    edited December 2012
    Wasn't it Icewind Dale which had awesome summons over level ups? Skeletons, zombies, mummies, warriors or archers, something like that, no?

    PS - as far as I remember, shouldn't warriors be immune to unenchanted weapons?

    Edit : seems I was wrong, it looks like IWD had simply skellies and zombies per level of the caster. FEAR ZEE ARMEH OF UNDEAD!
    Post edited by Cheesebelly on
    SCARY_WIZARD
  • CyricistCyricist Posts: 59Member
    @Cheesebelly I can't speak to the original IWD, as my memory is too hazy of it, but IWD2 had great summons across the board. From Apocalyptic Boneguards with Animate Dead, to summoning a vast array of creatures with Summon Monster, it definitely had variety to its summons. I think summoning the Drowned Dead were my favorite. Those guys just never died, seemed to be highly resistant to almost everything.
  • CheesebellyCheesebelly Posts: 1,650Member, Beta Tester
    You could summon the Drowned Dead in IWD2? :O Geezus, those guys are the stuff of nightmare, or at least, they always were for me in Heart of Winter. *spots one, gets surrounded by 15* - I believe each gave like 4000 XP too XD

    IWD1 also had plenty of Monster Summoning spells if I am not mistaken, going all the way up to level 9 spell (although it would be impossible to cast them unless you get yourself a mod which allows high level spellcasting).

    I just checked and it is indeed true - on page 9, you get to have 'Monster Summoning VII'. Although I can't seem to find what kind of monsters it creates, I'm pretty sure I saw Greater Mummies coming out of it XD
  • ZanathKariashiZanathKariashi Posts: 2,770Member
    The 15+ version is immune to normal weapons, not sure about the 11+ one..but I can vouch the first 2 aren't. Not really a bug persay though...they're already resistant to a lot of damage types, and even totemic summons don't get normal weapon immunity till 10.
  • Oxford_GuyOxford_Guy Posts: 3,688Member, Beta Tester
    So - apart from the Skeletons dropping their weapons (which I assume *is* a bug?) is the fact that animate dead now produces varying levels of Skeleton Warriors intended, or a bug?
  • ZanathKariashiZanathKariashi Posts: 2,770Member
    edited December 2012
    It's intended, it's just in need of a little fine tuning. A lot of people were complaining that the skeletons it summoned originally (BG2 version) were garbage (which they were), but a ghast was a bit much. Suggestions were made, and thus they've decided to just use scaled skeleton warriors so the spell use remains consistent at all levels.
    Post edited by ZanathKariashi on
    Oxford_Guy
  • Oxford_GuyOxford_Guy Posts: 3,688Member, Beta Tester

    It's intended, it's just in need of a little fine tuning. A lot of people were complaining that the skeletons it summoned originally (BG2 version) were garbage (which they were), but a ghast was a bit much. Suggestions were made, and thus they've decided to just use scaled skeleton warriors so the spell use remains consistent at all levels.

    Okay, great, I actually rather like the idea
  • BelgarathMTHBelgarathMTH Posts: 2,559Member
    I just had Yeslick, his two (or three) skeleton warriors (from two casts of Animate Dead), obliterate the sirines on both west coast maps, as well as to force the rival adventuring party on the Gullykin map to waste all their spells. That, my Web, and Yeslick's Silence spell made them pushovers.

    The Animate Dead spell rocks!

    It's simply one of the best, most powerful summoning spells in the game, no matter what they do to it. Undead charm spell immunity, hello? Charm spells are the most deadly spells in the game, and enemies waste them on your undead summonses.

    The Sword Coast Strategems mod removes this exploit by making casters too smart to waste charm spells on undead, or any other, summons.
    JarlealeelminsterOxford_Guy
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