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Jester song

szbszb Posts: 199Member
There has been a lot of discussion about this already but I made a new thread to try and clear it up.

Manual description: "...they must save vs spells with a -4 penalty..."
In game description: "...they must save vs spells with a +4 penalty..."

image

Unless wild dogs have some bonus to save vs spells (I don't think so) it seems that the in game description is correct and +4 penalty is applied, othervise a roll of 22 would not be possible on the save.
Post edited by szb on
AbelelminsterSilverstarbadbromanceBelgarathMTHBrude

Comments

  • AbelAbel Posts: 371Member
    Yes, in any case it's a penalty.
  • elminsterelminster Posts: 6,227Member, Beta Tester
    edited December 2012
    Thank you for visually demonstrating this change.
    Post edited by elminster on
    SilverstarGrandeCBelgarathMTH
  • badbromancebadbromance Posts: 183Member
    Were are all the Jester haters now?
  • tyl998tyl998 Posts: 144Member
    I am still confused about how saving throw numbers work. In third edition, the higher your saves, the better. If I get to make a saving throw with ANY sort of bonus, I am happy.

    In this case, the wolves making a save at a +4 bonus, does it mean it is EASIER for the wolves to make the save?
    TJ_Hooker
  • TJ_HookerTJ_Hooker Posts: 2,092Member
    edited December 2012
    Yeah, I'm with @tyl998, if the modifier increased the dogs saving throw roll, how is it a penalty?
    Post edited by TJ_Hooker on
  • ZanathKariashiZanathKariashi Posts: 2,705Member
    edited December 2012
    Yeah, not sure about that manual I think they're trying to say the song sucks, but weren't sure how to say it, since most people would see bonus, and be like yay it's better when it in fact sucks. The confusion effect only updates once per round at the beginning and is therefore waste during the first round confused, you have to confuse the target successfully twice in a row to have a chance of it doing something (33% attack nearest, 33% do nothing, 33% act normally)...... Positive amounts are a bonus that favors the target, negatives are a penalty and favor the caster.
    Post edited by ZanathKariashi on
  • PeccaPecca Posts: 833Member, Beta Tester
    edited December 2012
    I have said this on another thread with BG2 song that the description is wrong so I checked for BGEE song effects in NI and they are still same as before, which is:

    Levels 1-14: Enemies must Save vs. Spell with a +2 bonus each round or be Confused for that round
    Levels 15-19: Same chance of Confusion as above, plus enemies must Save vs. Spell each round or be Slowed for that round
    Levels 20+: Same chances of Confusion & Slow, must also Save vs. Spells with a +2 bonus each round or be knocked Unconscious for that round

    The bonus favors target but is only +2. Higher levels won't matter in BGEE but are still present in the game.

    On this note, if you think that the song is too weak you can use NI to edit the bonus to your liking. It is file SPCL751A.SPL
    Post edited by Pecca on
    elminsterszbAbel
  • elminsterelminster Posts: 6,227Member, Beta Tester
    Pecca said:

    I have said this on another thread with BG2 song that the description is wrong so I checked for BGEE song effects in NI and they are still same as before, which is:

    Levels 1-14: Enemies must Save vs. Spell with a +2 bonus each round or be Confused for that round
    Levels 15-19: Same chance of Confusion as above, plus enemies must Save vs. Spell each round or be Slowed for that round
    Levels 20+: Same chances of Confusion & Slow, must also Save vs. Spells with a +2 bonus each round or be knocked Unconscious for that round

    The bonus favors target but is only +2. Higher levels won't matter in BGEE but are still present in the game.

    On this note, if you think that the song is too weak you can use NI to edit the bonus to your liking. It is file SPCL751A.SPL

    I'll be damned you are right.
  • szbszb Posts: 199Member
    edited December 2012
    @TJ_Hooker
    It is a penalty for the player, because they will have an easier way to resist the effect. So its a bonus from the viewpoint of the enemies, and penalty from the view of the bard. Um...yeah, glad they made the rules so simple and hard to misunderstand.

    @Pecca
    Thanks Pecca! I was hoping the enchanted edition would clear all these confusions and have correct descriptions, but its the same as before :-(
    Could someone check the normal bardsong effects? Now I'm hoping there is a hidden luck bonus after all.
    Post edited by szb on
  • Oxford_GuyOxford_Guy Posts: 3,688Member, Beta Tester
    +4 vs saves to resist effects is pretty bad, hardly seems worth taking a jester
  • bbearbbear Posts: 1,139Member
    I agree. But confusion seems kind of overpower, right? If it works, it makes battling (especially spellcasters) much easier.

    I think a better implementation is no save, but the jester effect is less op. Maybe give a luck -2 to all opponent actions in their dice rolls.
  • szbszb Posts: 199Member

    +4 vs saves to resist effects is pretty bad, hardly seems worth taking a jester

    It's +2 actually as Pecca has pointed out. And if you consider that it has unlimited uses it's pretty good imo.

    Jaxsbudgie
  • dimakeydimakey Posts: 19Member
    szb said:


    Could someone check the normal bardsong effects? Now I'm hoping there is a hidden luck bonus after all.

    No. Bards still sux.
  • Oxford_GuyOxford_Guy Posts: 3,688Member, Beta Tester
    szb said:

    +4 vs saves to resist effects is pretty bad, hardly seems worth taking a jester

    It's +2 actually as Pecca has pointed out. And if you consider that it has unlimited uses it's pretty good imo.
    Okay, +2 isn't so bad, I still think a Skald is better
  • szbszb Posts: 199Member

    szb said:

    +4 vs saves to resist effects is pretty bad, hardly seems worth taking a jester

    It's +2 actually as Pecca has pointed out. And if you consider that it has unlimited uses it's pretty good imo.
    Okay, +2 isn't so bad, I still think a Skald is better
    Yeah, I think skald is better if you have lots of fighter types in your party, but if not, I prefer the jester.
  • AbelAbel Posts: 371Member
    szb said:

    +4 vs saves to resist effects is pretty bad, hardly seems worth taking a jester

    It's +2 actually as Pecca has pointed out. And if you consider that it has unlimited uses it's pretty good imo.
    Well, it only lasts 1 round so you have to be almost constantly singing if you want the effect to lasts. Plus, Confusion is not that powerful. So, in my opinion the Jester is not that good either.
  • szbszb Posts: 199Member
    edited December 2012
    Abel said:

    szb said:

    +4 vs saves to resist effects is pretty bad, hardly seems worth taking a jester

    It's +2 actually as Pecca has pointed out. And if you consider that it has unlimited uses it's pretty good imo.
    Well, it only lasts 1 round so you have to be almost constantly singing if you want the effect to lasts. Plus, Confusion is not that powerful. So, in my opinion the Jester is not that good either.
    Well at low levels its not very powerfull, but I still found it usefull many times. When I run out of spells and shooting is not so effective I always turn on singing.

    At higher levels the way I understand it works is that theres 3 seperate saving throws against each effect. So each round your enemies would have to save against confusion, slow, and getting uncuntious. Seems very probable that they will fail at least one of those saves.
    Post edited by szb on
  • PeccaPecca Posts: 833Member, Beta Tester
    Jesters are not very effective, but they are fun to roleplay. I edit Garrick to be jester and then just imagine what he has to sing about to make those wild dogs confused:)
  • AbelAbel Posts: 371Member
    edited December 2012
    dimakey said:

    szb said:


    Could someone check the normal bardsong effects? Now I'm hoping there is a hidden luck bonus after all.

    No. Bards still sux.
    That's what the Bard song does: http://forums.gibberlings3.net/index.php?showtopic=23932.
    There's no luck bonus.
    It can't be found in SPL so I guess it's hardcoded.
    Post edited by Abel on
  • szbszb Posts: 199Member
    Abel said:

    dimakey said:

    szb said:


    Could someone check the normal bardsong effects? Now I'm hoping there is a hidden luck bonus after all.

    No. Bards still sux.
    That's what the Bard song does: http://forums.gibberlings3.net/index.php?showtopic=23932.
    There's no luck bonus.
    It can't be found in SPL so I guess it's hardcoded.
    Quote from the link:
    " Here's what the default (unkitted) bard song does in BG2:ToB"
    They might have or have not fixed/changed that for BG EE, so untill someone checks the current files ( I don't know how to unfortunatly) that link doesn't mean much.
  • AbelAbel Posts: 371Member
    @szb The updated manual agrees with this, so no, it's very unlikely it has changed.
  • szbszb Posts: 199Member
    edited December 2012
    Abel said:

    @szb The updated manual agrees with this, so no, it's very unlikely it has changed.

    Quote from BGEE Manual Mastering Meele and Magic, page 44:

    "May use Bard Song ability. While active, the Bard Song has the following
    effects:
    o Increase morale to 10.
    o Remove Fear.
    o Protection from Fear."

    Quote from BGEE Manual Sword Coast Survival guide, page 56:

    "Bard Song
    This ability is usable by Bards; the Bard character begins playing a song that
    continues until any action other than movement is selected for that Bard.
    While the song is playing, the party’s morale and luck are higher."

    So the 2 manuals contradict to eachother :-(
    Post edited by szb on
    GrandeC
  • AbelAbel Posts: 371Member
    I see.
    Since the second description seems to be a copy & paste I would trust the first one. I'm not going to test it because I'm quite sure there hasn't been any change but if you want to be certain you can.
    Create a Bard, sing and see if any of the luck effects show up:
    #133 (0x085) Spell Effect: Luck Non-Cumulative [133]
    Parameter #1: Statistic Modifier
    Parameter #2: Irrelevant
    Description:
    Applies the modifier value specified by the 'Statistic Modifier' field in the style specified by the 'Type' field to the targetted creatures luck. Luck affects the minimum damage caused by a weapon (up to the normal maximum damage of the weapon) and the attack roll modifier (up to a maximum of 20, excluding natural attack roll modifiers, e.g. high STR, invisibility etc) by 'Statistic Modifier' amount. 'Statistic Modifier' also affects the damge rolls of opponents (in feature blocks, not extension headers). The effect sets STATE_LUCK.
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